Full disclosure, I am WELS, not LCMS, but I'd feel fully comfortable with becoming LCMS if I didn't have a local WELS as I think the WELS was a bit 'out there' when they cut ties with the LCMS. Heck, the pastor my church had when I was a toddler left the WELS for the LCMS, and I think it's ridiculous he and his wife can't take communion when they visit. But, I'm ranting now.to the question.My sister decided to leave the Lutheran Church, and she is now going to a church that belongs to the Evangelical Free Church of America, which is a loose group of churches that are fully autonomous. On the EFCA's website they say they find both the idea of infant baptism and adult-only baptism acceptable, and baptism and communion are 'ordinances.' They seem to not view either as a Means of Grace. At least my sister does not believe she needs to be 're-baptized.' But during a discussion last weekend, she said she feels like my mom and I attend a 'dead church.'
Her evidence for that is that the liturgy is just 'going through the motions' and the fact that the sermons aren't teaching the Bible (we don't teach through the entire Bible). She said her church is now teaching through Romans and how we're supposed to better our lives.
I mentioned that sounds like it could be bordering on what we have to 'do' to prove that we really have been saved.I admit, it is very difficult not to become defensive, and at the save time, her saying she feels as though I attend a 'dead church' really makes me feel like being Lutheran is wrong. I know it's not, but how do you not take it seriously and not doubt I'm in the wrong? She didn't come out and say I wasn't a Christian, but being told I am in a 'dead church' sure makes it feel like she was saying I just go through the motions and not really serve God. And my dad agrees with her, though he does not attend church, but he is a believer.Thanks for reading my thoughts that really feel jumbled at this point.
It’s sad when people think the liturgy is “going through the motions.” Now that you’ve heard her views, perhaps you could share with her just how much more depth there is to our liturgies than other denominations.Your Lutheran Service Book includes scripture references for the entire liturgy. We don’t make things up to “go through the motions” - everything we do in our liturgy is a confession of our faith. Literally every word. Even the structure.And you might take the time to explain what a sermon is.
It is God’s Word for you. Not just commentary on God’s Word, but literally God’s Word repackaged here and now to show your sins and your Savior. It is not merely a self-help tool or a bible study (although these are good and may be part of a sermon). LCMS Vicar here. (On mobile so forgive me for formatting issues)Has your sister attended your church at all? If so, how often?
If she hasn't, then she's just parroting others thoughts that she's heard.To the issue, people view that our church is dying. A pessimist could make a case for it.
We're going to have a shortage of Pastors in the next 10-15 years. Over half of our current Pastors are over the age of 50 and our seminaries aren't graduating enough to fill that void currently. So our #s are most likely going to continue to decrease for a few more years. But, a lot of the people that are leaving are the ones that only went to appease someone.
Such as children, people who married into the church, etc. (That point is conjecture. I don't have all the facts to back that up.)Would we say that the church is dying during the days before the Reformation? What about way back when the apostles were being persecuted? People will always point to the church and say it's dying.
Especially when our #s drop. We have to remember that it's God's church. He'll take care of her.Finally, I'm optimistic about the future of the LCMS, and the church as a whole. The church grows most under persecution and pressure. I believe the church has grown too comfortable. Also, the liturgical settings are what is keeping our church rooted.
They're keeping us alive. Because they're directly from Scripture, to us, for us. We have to remember that church is for us Christians to go and grow in.
To be taught that we are subject to the Law, but freed of the Law through the Gospel of Christ.I am speaking solely from an LCMS perspective. I have very little knowledge of how WELS or ELCA are doing. She had attended a Lutheran church from birth through age 23 (last year); we went to the same university (not at the same time), and we both attended the WELS church there, which had a small, but strong campus ministry. So it's not like she doesn't know how it is in my church. We did have a pastor during our formative years who was not approachable and the few people my age have never returned.I don't think she meant because of shrinking numbers, but because of how we teach and preach, Lutheranism seems to be lacking the passion of teaching the Bible and thus is dead.
If that makes sense. And we do have an elderly congregation; my mom is in her early 60s and there are maybe 5 couples younger than her. Other than school-age kids, I am the only young member, and I am almost 30!. I guess a few thoughts from a decidedly non-expert lay person:. Don't worry about what your sister thinks of your faith. That is between you and the Holy Trinity.
If your sister was wiccan and ridiculed you for not being wiccan (and your dad joined her), would that make you reconsider your faith? Neither should this. Again, no expert, but from what I'm hearing, the strongly liturgical churches are the ones who are weathering the current storm the best, in terms of numbers. The ones who in various ways have bent to more modern thinking are the same ones who struggle most with declines.
Again, not an expert, it's just what I repeatedly hear. Your faith walk is ultimately an internal matter. That's not subject to external inspection on earth. You could have the lamest and most boring worship service ever but be having the most intimate connection ever, at the very same time. I wouldn't judge a book by its cover here.
You make some really good points that make me feel better! Sometimes it's just awkward when it comes to family. I should be used to it. My dad's side is Catholic, mom's side Lutheran, our other sister hasn't decided on a church after marrying a Catholic in a non-denominational church.
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Oh, and I had to have an emergency baptism at birth (I was in critical condition that resulted in a physical disability), and the chaplain was a Catholic priest. Apparently, my mom's pastor at the time wanted to have a reaffirmation of the baptism because a priest did it, and the Lutheran side of my family still doesn't know about who baptized me as they would find that awful.umm, he did it right so what's the issue? Haha, I just have to laugh about that!. I think she is saying: she doesn't like the historical liturgy of the western Church and she prefers sermons that proceed through a selected book of the Bible compared to the 1 year or 3 year lectionary. To her, churches that follow the historic liturgy and lectionary are 'dead'.However, my LCMS church follows the lectionary for sermons, but then conducts a Bible study after the Divine Service which goes through a book of the Bible. Best of both practices?As for calling a liturgical church 'dead', that's what I was taught to do in the 1980s when I was a kid growing up in a charismatic church. I mean, I really believed that back then.
I found the LCMS church alien in its formality. Where were the ecstatic utterances, shouting, jumping, arm waving, and exclamations?
What about being 'slain in the spirit'? Why are the prayers written down in advance, instead of made up on the spot?Back then, my entire church history knowledge was that the Protestant church had split from the Roman Catholics, and that there was an Azusa Street Revival in 1906 that brought 'back' tongues to the Pentecostals.If your sister doesn't like the liturgy, it's likely a combination of unfamiliarity with the Divine Service, lack of knowledge of church history, and perhaps a dash of feeling superior because her church includes extemporaneous emotional experiences - surely the hallmark of a living God (in her opinion).
The whole preaching through the Bible thing was an adjustment for me too. But I found that sermons tied to scripture readings makes the message more digestible. I also think there's wisdom in using a lectionary because the preaching isn't totally up to the whim of the pastor. (For example, a pastor may really like Galatians and seem to always have messages from it).Does the church you attend or the Lutheran one she went to previously hold bible studies?
You do get the more deep-dive stuff there.As for going through the motions, maybe remind her that it can happen as easily in a liturgical church as a non-liturgical one. I found myself going through the motions in my old church. I was a passive observer. Sing and then sit for the sermon.
I like that now I'm actively involved in the service. Reading together, praying together, reciting the creeds, etc.
We're all involved together and that's awesome. The denomination is shrinking in America largely due to wrongful association with ELCA. That being said, I think that the simplicity of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, the sheer simplicity that Christ died for you and there’s nothing you can do about it, and the beauty and meaning of liturgy and sacraments, is what the world needs. Religious Zoomers (Gen Z) like myself are being more drawn to conservative, liturgical denominations over loose, liberal ones. The LCMS should emphasize that rather than run from it. In any case, the Lutheran Church is the closest of any Protestant denomination to the Medieval Church in the structure of its liturgy, and that’s good.
It was the Reformation. God did not leave His Church high and dry, totally dead from the end of Acts up until 1517.In any case, to think of the liturgy as going through the motions says more about the worshiper than the worship. The liturgy is not about what you have to say to God, it’s about what God has to say to you. Liturgical service should involve active listening. I think the matter is akin to people who listen to classical music like pop (casually in the background, otherwise passively) and find themselves bored by the richest possible experience. Everything you do in a liturgical service is a part of the message, and it’s a way to worship with your body.
The Lutheran Church is the closest of any Protestant denomination to the Medieval Church in the structure of its liturgyHigh church Anglicans would disagree with you.Also the Lutheran Church throughout its history have never had a unified liturgy. Each German principality had is own church order and their were major differences between each one. The much cited Luther's German Mass was only used little more than a decade in Wittenberg before it was replaced, and its use throughout Germany was never widespread.